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Quote FROM JON

“I do disagree with llulko on the listen to your body”.  
  
 
 
 
“ME”  …….  My response
 

I don’t agree with you… I think it’s important to listen and understand your body.
 
Jon, you have professionals guiding you such as Glenn; however in Blake’s case he is young and not as experienced as you with experts gagging his every movement. 
 
There is a right and wrong way to gage your body and not everyone understands how to.  I am not talking about being lazy and saying “wow i am really sore today so i will not train at all” This is not what I am talking about. 
 
There are times were I feel my body is not responding to my hard training, I feel tired and unmotivated then usual.  At this point I realize it might be time to do a low volume week to give my body sometime to rest, recover and get out of a plateau…
 
It might be different in your case but i think it’s very crucial to listen and understand your body in bodybuilding…

Quote by good old JON
 
“You have to fight through the platua, you listen to your body and back off right, but have you evered tried to just keep pushing through it for weeks and weeks?  You have not trained your body to do this, you have not trained your body to fight through a platua and come out on the other end still training hard no matter what your body feels or says, you have to teach your body like a dog.  I thought the same thing you did until I starting training hear with Donny shanle, I am not going to throw glenns name into this becuase I dont know his excact opinion on this, but I do know Donnys, and there is no such thing as a platua with donny or me.  and I think it would be good for a football player to train his body the same way I do.  Plus it dosnt take an army of proffestionals like glenn to train like this, you can do it working form home!  lol  I like this argument!  this is why I love this site, even though I am right all the time, you have some ok points!  lol  plus he is not in bodybuilding, he is training TO GET STRONGER.  I think I am going to listen to Donny shankle, than some article that you read in womens fitness.   …..damn        hold me back people!!!”

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS PEOPLE????
 
Is this  debate different for bodybuilders and strength athletes???
 
Should strength athletes push through and avoid listening to their body??

?????????????????????????????????????
 
COME ON PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! anyone??

You’d be surprised what your body can handle when you push it. Athletes like Jon, or elite football players like the NFL guys didn’t get where they are by taking time off and going low volume every time they are a little sore. They find things that will help them recover faster like fish oil, or cold and hot baths, and they keep pushing. Their bodies respond by getting stronger and growing.
It’s one thing if you’re going to be stupid and train 3 times a day, 7 days a week for 6 months straight. That would definitely be over-training. But if you use a smart program and recovery techniques, you don’t have to worry about overtraining. I’m not saying that you don’t need rest. I am saying that it’s unlikely that any weekend warrior or amateur bodybuilder/athlete is overtraining themselves unless they are doing something stupid.

 
I don’t think your average weekly warrior understand proper training, (pushing to the max and proper recovery).
 
Giving this advice to an average gym guru will not but used wisely… Someone like Jon and other elite athletes have the knowledge to push themselves and they should!  That is what makes them an elite educated athlete..
 
I don’t  believe giving this advice to a high school foot ball player is appropriate unless they have a full understanding about their body and training intense…
 
Do you follow what i am saying??
I am not saying the way Jon trains is wrong.. ITS RIGHT!! Because he understand what he is doing..

being sore and tired isn’t necessarily a sign over having overtrained. that is a product of the work you put in and is a sign that you’ve done damage to your muscles and that your body is building more muscle, which is what you want.

symptoms of real over-training resemble something closer to clinical depression. if you start to get really really lethargic, irratable, and things seem like they are really wrong then yes, you have probably overtrained and you need to back off a little.

that said, we work with a lot of kids who have 3 high school sports practices a week, come to train 2-3 times a week at the gym, not to mention games and tournaments on the weekends, and they are perfectly fine. a little sore? yes. overtrained? not even close.i remember having a schedule similar to this when i was younger as well, and i never felt like i was too run down to go out and play some more.

i don’t know what type of training blake is doing, but i bet it is highly doubtful that he is overtraining. is it possible? ANYTHING is possible. it’s just not likely. even during “hell week” when kids are doing “two-a-day” practices, their coaches are careful to make sure that they aren’t killing these kids. it’s national news when a kid dies doing a sports activity and that’s the last thing any coach ever wants to see.

I don’t think you guys understand my point at all… What Jon is doing is not over training… what Blake is doing right now is NOt over training…
 
I don’t think you guys are reading my post right.
 
Stop trying to make a debate and try to see what i am saying… we are kind of agreeing but i am stating a different point.
 
Most people do not over train… But to tell an average gym goer to train like Jon is silly… They don’t understand proper recovery.
 
Jon stretches, naps, supplements, goes in the hot tub and cold pool, eats properly.
 
 
An average gym guru usually does not know that kind of stuff…
 

 
key points are
1)  Everyone is a bit differernt based on genetics, training history, dedication to recovery, and lifestyle.
2) Most people dont train as hard as they could nd the word overtraining out of most mouths is lunacy.
3)  If you push long enough and hard enough, you will crash.  I prefer to plan easier weeks so I can plan these “crashes”.  Other coaches prefer to push till they happen on their own.  difference of opinion.

I agree with Glenns key points… Everyone is different and requires different recovery, training intensity, and deloading…
 
He plans this out in advance with his clients because he understands how their bodies function…
 
Most gym gurus don’t push themselves to the point of over training (they don’t really understand what overtraining is) however you cannot give that same person Jons workout routine and expect them to succeed without proper understanding of their own body (via recovery, supplements, diet, stretching and understanding the difference between good and bad soreness) 
 
There needs to be a plan and a goal which most people don’t grasp… They go into the gym with no objectives…
 
Basically my point AGAIN is… each person is different and requires a specific program which includes de-loading periods to prevent over training and plateaus’.  To tell some amateur to go balls to the ball all the time is silly because they don’t understand what that really means…
 
Two things will happen… Either they will not push them selves hard enough or they will run them selves to the ground without knowing what hit them..  
 

I agree that it’s nearly impossible for most normal people to overtrain. Most of the people you see in a commercial gym simply don’t have the time to dedicate to training to the point of overtraining. Glenn makes really great points about how everyone is different too - some people are able to handle a lot more activity than others.

What’s a gym guru? You mean like a trainer?
I only work out like 2-3 times a week and I get sore as hell, but I wouldn’t even know what overtraining looks like. You guys say it looks like depression but what kind of physical effects are there? I would figure you would just be super sore and tired and have trouble moving, right?

Conditioning requires a balance between overload and recovery. Too much overload and/or too little recovery may result in both physical and psychology symptoms of overtraining syndrome.
 
 
Common Warning Signs and Symptoms of Overtraining Syndrome
 
•Washed-out feeling, tired, drained, lack of energy
•Mild leg soreness, general aches and pains
•Pain in muscles and joints
•Sudden drop in performance
•Insomnia
•Headaches
•Decreased immunity (increased number of colds, and sore throats)
•Decrease in training capacity / intensity
•Moodiness and irritability
•Depression
•Loss of enthusiasm for the sport
•Decreased appetite
•Increased incidence of injuries.
•A compulsive need to exercise
 
 
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/overtraining/a/aa062499a.htm

How to Prevent Overtraining Syndrome
 
 
It’s often hard to predict overtraining because every athlete responds differently to certain training routines. It is important, however, to vary training through the year and schedule in significant rest time. The following tips may help you avoid overtraining. 
  
 

Overtraining can lead to so many other issues. If you have the symptoms then you need to take a week off. I use to “push through” when i was overtraining and it just wasnt worth it. My body ached all over, headaches, nausea, very irritable, loss of appetite and more. Hell i even got lumps behind my ears and they hurt like hell. So, i took a week off and did nothing related to weights or cardio but i stayed on my diet and after a week i felt a whole lot better.

Matt.. did you read the comments above?
 
They are suggesting that most people do not know what over training is..
 
I want to get your opinion becasue you are a body builder..

no, we’re suggesting that most people aren’t training enough to be anywhere close to overtraining. going to the gym 3-5 times a week is almost never enough to overtrain yourself, especially with the way most weekend warriors train.

guys like Jon who train twice a day, 6 days a week are at risk for overtraining, but even that can be prevented by using proper recovery methods. THAT is what we are saying. we know that not everyone has the drive to train like Jon, nor the time or goals to train like that, but they are also nowhere near overtraining themselves. they may get tired and sore, but that doesn’t mean they are close to overtraining.

do you understand what i’m saying?

Omg!! We are arguing about the same thing… I know most people are not close to over training…
 
“Guys like Jon who train twice a day, 6 days a week are at risk for overtraining, but even that can be prevented by using proper recovery methods.”
 
EXACTLY!!
 
I am also saying that over training can be prevented by using proper recovery methods which most average people don’t know…
 
Also, I am suggesting that you should not tell an average person to train like Jon (6 days a week twice a day, balls to the wall) because they WILL over train by not recovering properly…
 
I really don’t think you get what i am saying… Jon told a young kid to train like him… He should not give that advice to someone that does not understand proper recovery.
 
Yes! You are correct the average person does not train like Jon!! …..BUT….. if told to without understanding  how the body works; it would be a disaster..
 
 

 IMO, overtraining happens when your output exceeds your input. To clarify, when someone is training for 2 or more hours a day 5 to 7 days a week but their diet and supplementation do not support it, overtraining is going to happen and fast.
 
I have a good friend that is an IFPA pro and he trains 2 to 3 hours a day 5 days a week sometime 6 but he eats 7 to 8 meals a day and gets 8hrs of sleep every night. He uses NO supplements other than multi vitamin and glutamine.
 
Age has a lot to do with it. I train 2 heavy days in a row, take a day off then have 3 light days in a row then a day off then repeat. I usually hit an hour and a half to 2 hours tops. BUT i am eating a total of 7 food meals and 1 whey shake pwo. Plus multi vitamin, glutamine and fish oil so my body supports this.
 
Overtraining is so easy to do and often most people do not realize they are over training. They feel weak, tired, headaches, nausea, frustration, sore muscles that seem to never recover and even sore joints. Most think they need to do more but actually doing a lot less pays off.

 
I wrote an article on Over training
 
http://bb2k.blogspot.com/2011/01/over-training-is-it-happening-to-you.html
 
Enjoy! Please comment on my sitre what you think and what you have experienced!

Jon didn’t tell Blake to train like he does (if you are referring to the quote you posted above). he told him to push through a plateau. there’s a BIG difference. if you are really commenting on the quote that oyu posted from Jon, he is absolutely right. in many cases, plateaus are due to not enough effort or willpower to push through, especially in someone who hasn’t been training enough to “overtrain” themselves. you can mix up protocols, or rep schemes or whatever you want, but sometimes busting through a plateau is all about how much fight there is in the dog.

don’t get so defensive when people don’t agree with you =oP.

Omg… do you see my point at all. I feel like you are just arguing to argue… I see your point … trust me i do…
 
Most people in the gym DON’T train hard.. There are maybe 3 girls including myself that actually “workout”  … However, there are people like me that do train hard in other gyms… stop thinking that Jon and the rest of your team are the only ones that  train hard and can possibly reach the point of over training..
 
 I did it a few years ago… I was going to the gym twice a day, 7 days a week with little rest, supplements, nutrients and calories… I hit the wall within 2 years… I still pushed through it until i finally realized the damage i have caused my body. I was not seeing results because I was over trained and didn’t understand proper recovery
 
This is not an average “men’s health magazine website”… Most people on muscledog train to their max… We have a ton of figure, bodybuilding and Olympic competitors… To be naive and say it’s almost impossible to over train is stupid… I did it and it was not fun… I wish i had someone tell me about over training…
 

 amen sister. i had no idea over training was even possible. i had all the signs and then some. even had lumps behind my ears and they hurt like hell. went to the doctor and thats the first time i heard of over training. took 2 weeks off and bam! felt like a million bucks. it is very possible, can and does happen very often so we all need to really monitor our workouts, diet, supplements etc.

THANK YOU!! At least someone agrees with me and sees my point…
 
I think there is a big disconnect between body builders and Olympic lifters…
 
I am sure the level Jon trains exceeds most people (by far) however body building and competing is a lot harder then you guys think…
 
Over training is very real! If you over train you can actually go against your goals and plateau.  Plateaus don’t only happen to people that never change things up… it also happens to people that are not aware of proper nutrition and recovery.  Olympic lifters and bodybuilders are very different!! You have to keep this in mind… we have very different goals..  
 

  
I agree that “overtraining” happens more to people that are not aware of proper recoveryt methods.  Today we trained aboiut 2 and a half hours…  then we went to a health club and did 3 cycles of 15 min in the sauna, a cold shower, then 5 minutes in a pool…  then I sent the guys home with enough epsome salt for a good soak both tonight and tomorrow…  which will ensure adequate magnesium levels and is also super relaxing and, sleep is important.  I know there are others that trained really hard today, that went home to a frozen pizza, a few beers along with the couple of hours of TV that they watched, then to bed.  Obviously, they are not going to recover as fast, they will wake up more stiff and sore than we will.  Knowledge of recovery techniques are very important.

THANKYOU!!! that was my point!!!!! yeayyyyy! someone agreed

Generally, overtraining is a result of CNS crash or fatigue. Most lifters don’t realize that it’s not “overuse of the muscles”. The CNS is responsible for recovery…burn it out and your recovery sucks. That being said, standard methods of muscle recovery are important (ice,NSAIDS, stretching, etc) but to truely recover…it’s as simple as taking some time off.

.
This concept is so hard for many lifters… It’s like a crazy mental block!!
 
Most lifters know it’s beneficial to take a day or two off however they feel like they will lose everything they worked for..
 
Why do people develop this obsession/fear??
 
I used to be so scared to miss a day from the gym however i have learned that when i take a few days off (once in a while) i see better results…
 

 
I’m curious, where did you get the information that overtraining is most often caused by CNS fatigue or “crash”?  How is this measured?  What studies were done?  What did the studies measure?

Most of my info comes from research that Louie Simmons has been preaching for years. If I push myself hard & heavy too long, I get fried, even though my muscles aren’t sore. All I do is take a week or two off and I’m ready to go again. Sometimes real-world experience is just as good as a clinical trial.